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Slorg
Moderator

Australia
996 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2008 :  23:16:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think most of the disappointed fans can agree the disappointment has been caused by two things:

1) The movie is too short. (Lack of character development, plot holes, rushed pace all fit into this category).

2) The animation is awful. (2D/3D mix, choppy animation, bad designs all fit into this category).

I imagine with a bigger budget, we'd have had a longer movie and a better animation studio.

I'm interested to see how many of you agree with me. Are the two points I brought up basically the whole reason the movie was disappointing?

Edited by - Slorg on 19 Jan 2008 23:17:43
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raist415
Starting Member

Canada
4 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2008 :  23:35:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
whoever made the decision to make the movie a 2d/3d mix made a huge mistake. remove the 3d...put the budget for the 3d into 2d then viola. you have more options to lengthen the movie and put the stuff that wasn't included.

still, a japanese anime outfit would've done better in 2D.
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Lokan
Starting Member

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  02:17:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with both Slorg and Raist415 on their points.
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polaris1
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  02:52:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm unhappy that there are so many fanboys on this site that insist this is a good movie.

I mean for God's sake.

It was horrible, absolutely awful - after all the build up and going on about it to be rewarded with this kick in the ass beggars belief.

Some people on here have no taste whatsoever. Either that or no dignity by pretending it was good. I can draw no other conclusion other than that.

If you liked this, you don't know what a good movie is.

I did an experiment and showed this to some people in my house from uni who have no clue about the books, about D&D or any of that stuff.

I won't post what some of them said to me afterwards as it will offend some people on here, but the bottom line is they thought this was a sh*tty cartoon from the past and couldn't understand what the hell was supposed to be going on in it.

And so many are making excuses for this. Why, for what reason? 'I suppose they were just wanting to do this' or 'I reckon they did it this way because of x, y, z'.

I am unhappy and I have good reason to be. It's a mess, a disaster.

Don't get me wrong, you think it pleases me that I feel this way? I'd rather not, I'd much rather it was alright or even just quite bad. But this is dreadful. And reading stuff like 'it's not actually that bad' or 'I liked Fizban using a knock spell (WTF???)' just doesn't paper over the cracks for me.

Face it, we'll never see these books in any recognisable form other than the books we already have unless somebody is willing to throw some huge bucks at this.

And that just aint going to happen.

That's what I'm unhappy about. People who do things half-heartedly or without being properly informed about what they are getting into and prepared for it are setting themselves up for a disaster, and like it or not we have a disaster on our hands here (relatively speaking).

If the heroes of the lance carried out their quest with the same gusto as this project has been carried out with, Krynn would have been consumed by darkness.

I will always have these great characters in my heart but this childish, cheap cartoon falls way short of the mark.
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tirwin
Starting Member

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  03:33:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with all that is said above. I watched half of it again tonight to see if I was over reacting, and unfortunately I wasn't. The whole black dragon thing is enough to destroy this movie by itself. Riverwind didn't even take an acid bath, and the dragon never came out of a well, and I could go on but I have wasted enough time already.

I thought the Riverwind scene was the reason for the pg 13 rating, and as far as I can tell its for Tika's bouncing boobs and swaying ass! Pathetic and cheesy, nicely done!
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LETDOWNFAN
Starting Member

3 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  04:10:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been readind Dragonlance since the first book was published. After decades of purchasing every novel with the Dragonlance logo I was excited about this movie (a bit dissapointed that it was going to be a cartoon) I preordered it on Amazon. I keep my collection well maintained for my son (4 years old now)so that he will enjoy the world of Kryn as I have.

We are vacationing in Disneyworld now and I brought it on my plane ride. I could barely wait to get on the plane and pop in the DVD. I turned it off half way through for all the reasones mentioned by previous and future posters.

HOW SHAMEFUL! WHAT A DISSAPOINTMENT. WEIS AND HICKMAN SHAME ON YOU THAT YOU HELPED THIS ABNOMINATION HAPPEN!

A DISGUSTED FAN
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loanwrangler
Starting Member

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  05:13:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So if I understood correctly, the reason this movie was done as an animated film was so they could do more, be closer to the story.

Um, wtf? What happened? When I got this in the mail today I was almost giddy with excitement. Then as I watched it I tried to be open to whatever angle was chosen to tell the story. The longer it went on, the more upset I got. C'mon, its a damn cartoon, draw the stuff correctly for crying out loud (I nearly did).

I could go on about the errors, but many others already have. But I will repeat one thing: Why couldn't they put just a bit more effort into keeping it true to the classic tale that has been pouring in money for 2 decades????? I have been a devout fan for over 10 years, devouring and enjoying all DL material I can find. This movie is an insult to anyone who even hints at being a fan.

Tweaking the storyline a wee bit to fit time constraints, fine. Changing/omitting vital events and scenes? Unacceptable.

It pains me that I sat thru 90 minutes of hell, that I paid for it makes it even worse.

If anyone has anything redeeming to say about this, please let me know. So far all I've seen looks as if the people are acting like a beaten dog hoping its master will stay it's hand if it pleads nice enough....

I feel ill...
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oldfan
New Member

80 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  09:22:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wow, this is funny, I went back and looked up the thread I posted back in July when I first found out about this movie and this website, and sadly I think my comments still apply. It's just so sad that in the industry we just see the same thing happen over and over again. Does no one ever learn from others' mistakes?

quote:


I must admit that I'm rather horrified at the prospect, especially when I discovered not only is it a 2d/3d project, but it will be a joint project outsourced to Korea and India.

...

Anyway, back on topic, I think people really have unrealistic expectations for this movie.

An animated movie, even one that flops as badly as Disney's Treasure Planet generally takes 4-5 years in production. Clean up, ink and color take about as long as the entire animation process in 2D. Throw in the complications of compositing with 3D characters and matching the 2 looks and you've got quite a task on your hands.

From the sounds of the scant production notes, they're tying up a "test shot" in january of 2007, and are slated to finish production in spring of 2007? Although their timeline seems to have slipped.. does that give them an entire 6 months or more for the core of production? That production timeline for 90-100 minutes seems more inline with the speed at which established 22 minute saturday morning cartoon episodes are produced.

I would actually be surprised if the final product is up to par with current saturday morning cartoons. Even if Dragonlance is sort of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy meets LOTR, I don't think a spongbob squarepants animation style would work too well with it.

The warning signs are all there:
- touting known actors such as Lucy Lawless as the voices (why don't they save up this money for production instead)
- a focus on 3D and monsters
- god awful preproduction art (I'm sorry, but if those are the character designs they are going to use for 2D animation I feel very sorry for the animators. They obviously know nothing about the requirements of animation. Sure the drawing would work fine for still comic book images, and they look it, but animation-wise they only dredge up traumatizing memories of a black and white Tarzan animation with muscles of steel that moved like a cut-out on a stick.)
- the fact that is mentioned that they want to _keep_ the detail on the human (note hand-drawn) characters. So the prepro art dates from aug 06, a year from then they hope to be finished animating and cleaning up the characters.. with all that detail. Do they pay the artists in Korea enough for this kind of misery?
- 3D draconian monsters. Does this mean 3d dragons as well?
Besides compositing and integration issues, why? why oh why? Are they hard to draw? Compared to Sturm's armor which apparently they would like to preserve as detailed.. this just makes no sense to me..
Sets in 3D sure.. but why separate out the the humanoid characters vs the monsters...
- 3D smoke and light effects..
When production houses start to emphasize on the detail that is being put into using particle effects for background smoke to make it look more "realistic", god kills a kitten.
It would make sense if the sets are done in 3d, but what's wrong with good old hand animated 2d smoke that often has so much more life and style. Why waste the budget and time on 3d smoke and light effects when nothing at all is being mentioned about the excellent amount of time and money spent on character animation? I see nothing mentioned about how well animated and emotionally convincing the hand-drawn characters will be... nothing about how graceful the elves will move, how the animators studied real swordfighters for the fight scenes, or how they referenced bats and eagles for the graceful power of the dragons. Instead we're told about the awesome camera moves, the light as it streams thru the windows, and the glorious lance in the opening titles.
Will any of this matter if the dialogue is cheesy, the characters move like hot-dogs on a stick, the painstakingly detailed sturm armor crawls like worms across his body, and the smooth weightlessness of the 24fps 3D creatures duke it out with the 12fps oh-so-detailed human characters?

I stopped by the websites of the production companies, although the korean one doesn't seem to have a link. Sure the Indian 2D looks like your typical saturday morning fare, but their 3D doesn't have much to show.
I wonder if the Korean 2D animation will look like badly drawn Japanese anime. Sure there's some wonderful stuff coming out of Korea, but with the constraints put on the production, one can only hope they can pull it off.

Animated movies often boil down to time, money and craftsmanship. The trade-offs being more time requires more money, less time equals less money but also lower quality.

With the time and money pressures on this DL movie, I'm not holding my breath for it to be even comparable to a Saturday morning cartoon. Sure, maybe it will please Naruto fans but as an animation fan I can't see much promise in the entire endeavor.

It's sad to see that studios still do not realize that big names, cutting edge 3D technology, outsourcing to cheaper countries is not going to make a movie better. That animated movies of equivalent quality are not easier, faster or cheaper than their live action counterparts.

Seriously, would you rather see a poorly animated, horrendously drawn character acting to the voice of some well-known talents.. or would you rather listen to mediocre unknowns voicing beautifully drawn and animated characters. You can push the character animation and art to compensate for a poor voice actor, but can the best voice actor compensate for poorly animated artwork?

Personally I think I would rather watch a DL movie made using the Guild Wars real time game engine than any 2D/3D combo. Please, keep it all 3D or all 2D.. this mishmash makes no sense except to pander to the masses.

If I were Hicks and Weisman, I'd probably start running away as fast as I could from this project. But I'm not, so all I can say is I will hope for the best.. but the signs here are too similar to so many other tanked animation projects that have all the wrong goals in mind.


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Lauralan
Starting Member

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  09:54:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all, I haven't posted in years, but I felt obligated to now. I was in Blockbuster radomly tonight, and lo and behold, there was DoAT! I didn't even know it was out yet... like most of you, I first read the books a loong time ago (about 15-20 yrs ago), and was a huge fan. I haven't read much DL lately, maybe a new book every year or so... Anyway, I was super psyched about the movie, to the point that I BOUGHT the DVD since the the four copies they had were rented out.

Boy do I regret that.

Most of my complaints have already been voiced here, but a few major ones haven't yet.

PROS
Music was OK
Goldmoon looked good
The draconians were well animated
Sutherland and Lawless did pretty good
The actor doing Tas did pretty good (but his writing was horrible)
There were a few added lines that made me chuckle (can't think of any off hand)

CONS
* The rest of the animation was pretty disappointing. Very choppy, very inconsistant (Flint's arms looks like elephant legs in a lot of the scenes... and Tas and Flint changed heights from shot to shot...), and lacking in any interesting subtlety

* I recall reading that Raistlin was given hourglass eyes because some of the guys thought it would "look cool"... boy did that sentiment get lost in this film

* Missing "classic" scenes. I understand some things must be cut for length, but some stuff that was cut had no reason to be cut (like Tanis saying, "we'll go out through the kitchen." C'mon, it doesn't take that long to say it, and it's a classic line!) And the Onyx from the well scene would have been much more impressive than the Verminaard-Onyx love story that they added in there.

* the dragons are unimpressive. They bow and grovel to Verminaard (uhm, what?), there is no dragonfear, we only see Onyx use her acid weapon once (to melt a tiny pillar), and the end fight between Malystrix and Ember was lackluster at best. (Malystrix started off well, but they didn't take it anywhere...)

* The writing was stale and inconsistent with the characters (since when does Tas insult Raistlin every other line?! And boy does Riverwind come across as a jerk...)

* Some of the voice acting was abominable. I was very disapointed in Tanis and the voices of the draconians.

* Compile that with stale writing and animation that has not detail, and we get ABSOLUTELY NO emotion. In the entire movie. No fear on any character (not even Dragon Fear), no feeling of love (when Riverwind tries to kiss Goldmoon I thought he was trying to bite her or something... and Laurana and Tanis had no chemistry, but her and Elistan were about to get naughty?!), they even managed to muddle through one of the saddest and heartwrenching scenes (the destroyed Que Shu village), turning it into a slightly grotesque 30 second scene, with no tension or resolve... this should have been a frightening moment when we first hear of the Verminaard character, and a moment of resolve for Goldmoon and Riverwind, and a dose of reality for the rest of the characters. Instead, I hardly remember it.

* I'm disappointed they gave away the Fizban/Paladine story so early on. Sure didn't leave much for DoWN or DoSD, if they are every made... which I almost hope they won't be.

* Speaking of gods, this brings me to my final and most ignored (on this board) complaint: the over saturation of religiousness... Every other sentence was some mumbojumbo about needing to have faith and trusting in the gods of light. (no gods of neutrality, mind you). Tanis was not a man struggling with inner turmoil between his elven and human blood, and elven and human loves... No, he was a man struggling for faith, and only the almighty Fizban can lead him to the light. Yech. I always thought that Tracy and Margaret did a wonderful job of not overwhelming the world of mortals with dieties and religion. It was always about balance and free will, with a little bit of interference/guidance from the gods (Takhisis usually more than others). In this movie, it was so saturated with religion, I felt like I was watching a church film.

Anyway, what a disapointment. Sigh.......

My husband and I wrote a screenplay adaptation for the opening scene (where Tanis and Flint meet up with Tas, and then fight the goblins), and it was amazingly better than this movie. Anyway, this movie makes me want to film that opening scene with real actors (and real acting, heaven forbid). Any local Southern Californians want to help me put this together? I need something to take the bitter taste out of my mouth, and this might be just the thing.

~ Laura
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krashx7
Starting Member

9 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2008 :  15:36:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen. I knew it was going to be but I still had some hope for it. When the movie starts out and you see a few heads on some posts and some people getting slaughtered it makes you think its going to be ok but thats about the only cool part in the movie. Well that and Tikas boobs. By far the worst part of the movie was xak saroth. Hey guys lets get this little gully dwarve to walk us right up to the door thats in plain site, have tas unlock it, and then go inside and not be surprised at all to see a dragon sleeping. Then while we're at it, lets get into a loud arguement and wake the dragon up because hell I dont know the movie already sucks how can this make it any worse right? I know lets show Qualensti like its something pulled right out of my rear and make Laurana look like a skank. Screw this film. I wish I never even watched it.
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member

USA
2224 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2008 :  00:53:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I found that I disliked this movie alot more than I actually liked it. I only got through 50 mins, but here's what I have so far:

I thought that most of the voice acting was bad. Fizban sounds like the Dungeon Master from the 80's D&D cartoon. The Forestmaster sounded just like the Southern Oracle in the Neverending Story. Tas' voice was not shrill enough and Caramon's just didn't fit. Tanis' voice was ok, but nothing spectacular. I did not have a problem with not having Raist whisper so much, but the spellcasting sounded weird and out of place.

The music was good, but I don't think it totally fit each scene. There were times where it was really dramatic and it just needed to be toned down a bit.

I was not a fan of the 3d/2d mix. I think it should have all been 2d.
Some of the camera work was choppy.

The blue crystal staff was bronze more often than blue.

Onxy laying on the pile of gold like Smaug was disgusting.

More to come.....


"Colt 45. It works everytime."

Edited by - Vassor Doss on 21 Jan 2008 00:54:41
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Immolatus
Junior Member

USA
135 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2008 :  01:59:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of the main negative things I see in this movie that has not been posted to death is its lack of a defined audience. As a PG13, one would think its aim was adults. However, outside of a few scenes, this really did seem like a kids movie. The dialogue seems very simple and the overall feel was very young. Usually, it seems like filmmakers need to remove scenes to achieve a lower rating, and here I think scenes were added in to make it higher. While having Caramon staring at Tika shaking her lady bits is a quick way to convey his interest in her, it did seem to be just a way to boost the rating. Many of the violent scenes feature no blood, but when Sturm gets busted in his face, blood spills onto the ground like his jugular has been slashed. In short, this film suffers greatly due to its lack of identity. It would have been better either going fully for an adult audience with full violence, gore and more mature dialogue and themes or eliminating the random adult moments and going strictly for a younger audience.

As a final thought, does this movie's failure to present all of the immense and depth themes of the novel suggest that it is simply an impossible task?
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Lauralan
Starting Member

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2008 :  02:42:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Immolatus, you make an excellent point. At the end of the movie, I too felt that if I was 9-12yrs old I might have liked the movie. But it's rated PG-13, so in theory this movie wasn't even intended for this audience. I don't get it.

And to answer your question, no I don't think making a good DoAT movie is an impossible task. A lot of what was wrong with this movie was the WAY it was accomplished, and only a little of WHAT was accomplished. I think with better writing, voice acting, and animation, the characters could have achieved much more depth, without adding any length to the film. I think a couple of unecessary scenes could have been cut (almost all of the early Verminaard scenes; and most of the Paladine-Takhisis stuff; Tika and Eben making out), and more of the cut scenes could have been added (Sturm leading Riverwind and Goldmoon to the Inn, the companions getting to know each other at Tika's house, Onyx and the well, Riverwind dying and being healed, expand on Bupu, Eben and his betrayal, and the slug/wyrmslayer scene), and still keep it within 2 hours.

But I really don't think the producers tried to make DoAT into a movie; I think they tried to make a completely different story based off of DoAT, geared towards kids.

In that, they may have accomplished their task. But what a disappointment to the rest of us.
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Slorg
Moderator

Australia
996 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2008 :  02:42:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The PG-13 debate is definitely one I agree with. It may even need its own thread (we'll see how it goes).

When the PG-13 rating was announced, I was pretty happy. I had visions of Riverwind getting toasted (though not graphically), Sturm's head wound, and plenty of other scenes that call for the rating.

The movie itself almost seems to need simply a PG rating. It's my opinion that most kids aged 8 and up could probably handle the movie pretty well. The books, on the other hand, should *probably* be read around 12, 13 on up.


The rating is a bit baffling to me, though I suppose it's ultimately up to the ratings bereau to decide what's appropriate.

Before arguing with a moderator, look here: http://www.dragonlance-movie.com/forum/go/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74
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Sioux
Starting Member

1 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2008 :  10:15:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I might as well throw my negative comments into the pile.

To tell the truth, I didn't finish the movie, I got a quarter way in and turned it off. And from what I'm reading here and elsewhere I don't need to finish it to know its bad.

The Cons on this outweigh any possible pros that could be trying to keep this production above the surface.

I know what killed this movie however, its more along the line of several major factors that culminated in a terrible movie that didn't capture the essence nor the depth of Dragon Lance.

The voice acting was decent. I've heard far worse on better productions but, there is no denying it was sub par for such a story as this. It didn't have enough diversity and everyone sounded the same, there was no real contrast from what I heard other than the voice actor making his voice fit whatever his part looked like in range.(And no offense to her but once you see Lucy Lawless on board a cartoon movie, you know she's in it for the paycheck, she did it with Xena, now this. Though, I don't know why Rosenbaum was Tanis either, he's not a hero, that man is a villain/supporting man at best.)

The characters all lacked a certain amount of depth. They all felt lifeless and the emotions they all should have had were lost and barely if at all showed.

The plot was rushed like hell leading to vital pieces of storytelling information to be glossed over in a rush of plot movement.

It does indeed lack a major audience its shooting for as one moment you think its aiming for older fans and the next those kids that wake up at seven in the morning on Saturdays to watch cartoons.

The choice of animation studios was terrible. I mean, when you're going overseas for a place to work on your movie, if its not anime from Japan, its not worth it. I've seen better animation come out of my school(I attend an art school in an animation program) in the graduation portfolios.

The pre-production sketches for character sheets were lazy. They were badly done and gave the barest source information for the characters.

The 3D models were terrible, absolutley terrible. Its obvious they didn't use a good 3D program and or didn't factor in the render time it would take to not only pull off a good dragon sequence but a mulititude of them in one frame as well as the textures on said dragons. Same thing with the Draconians and Takhisis.

The repetition, although a major animation device, was terribly done and used way too much. The blend of the 2D cel work here and the 3D backgrounds for fire and the blending with the dragons was amateur at best. And what's worse? There wasn't enough frames for each scene it felt like as the movements were really choppy.

It feels as if they didn't allocate enough time for pre-production first of all and they thought the actual production schedule wouldn't necessarily take alot of time.

Okay, I'm sorry, but when you're bringing a fantasy epic like Dragon Lance, a spawn from the D&D generation of the 1970s that actually did well and is one of the best selling fantasy novels out there still today, to life you do not cut corners. You do not underappreciate the time and processes it takes to make a good animated feature. And probably one of the main issues it seems like is that no one working on this thing knew the source material. Its as if the animators were given the character sheets and they just worked with what they had(which wasn't alot). There was no respect, there was no recognition of what they were working on. It was as if they did it for the paycheck and rushed it out.

This could have been a good production. It had the writers involved for the books, both Weis and Hickman but the problem lay in the organization for this whole thing. It seems as if they just went out and spent a small amount of money to craft their books into an animated movie without really understanding the process and the work involved and the time it would take here to make it look good.

I fear down the line if this were actually made into a live action movie. Mainly for the fact that I see this lack of care thing coming up again and hurting the production and turning it into whatever the hell the Dungeons and Dragons movie was. Also, I'm sure a screen writer will have a magical time hacking the DoAT novel into something bite sized for movie audiences. It probably will only work with a good director and I doubt even in my life time there'll be someone good picking this up again after this animated fiasco.

I was disappointed entirely. Not enough to shake me from the books mind you but, just the lack of care shown here. Really damn disappointed.

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